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Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by RAUL
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RAUL
Fee per hour of WD development July 08, 2011 11:34PM |
[Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: RAUL (IP Logged)
Date: July 1, 2011 06:32PM
Hi everybody.
Just a little off-topic to ask you something: how much is your fee per hour for WD development?? Where do you work? (I mean Germany, France, USA, etc..)
PS: sorry for this off-topic. I didn't know where else to find a lot of WD developers. Kind regards.
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: reg. User Allard (IP Logged)
Date: July 1, 2011 07:41PM
Hi
I think that the fee per hour for moast wd developers depends on the amount of work. If it is a job that takes 6 months or 3 weeks can make quite a difference.
I think that a kwalified wd developer ( mening someone who realy knows Windev ) will cost you 60 to 90 euro or more per hour. 60 if the job is big if it is a small job 90 or more . But that's my opinion.
I think moast of the windev developers live in france, Belgium, Spain, Germany. I think I read somewhere that pcsoft has sold some 10.000 copies in the us as well. There is a developers comunity in australia so it's used there as well, donnot know how many developers though. And I saw some questions on this forum from people in England. I live in holland and windev isnot used mutch in holland. ( that 's my opinion for there are verry view vacancees in holland for wx developers in Holland)
I think it is better that if you want to hire someone you should tell where you are and what kind of project you have ( duration) Then they can contact you and give you an estimate ( hour rate )
I hope this info helps
regards
Allard
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: RAUL (IP Logged)
Date: July 1, 2011 09:00PM
Thank you Allard for your reply.
This questions is not for hiring someone. The objective is to have an idea (all of us Wx developers) about how well (or bad) are we being payed for our work.
Dear colleague, if you enter to this topic, please leave your opinion, it doesn't matter if you are payed in a monthly basis. The important thing here is to know how is the Wx maket payed!! I think it's interesting for all of us.
Kind regards.
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: reg. User Allard (IP Logged)
Date: July 1, 2011 09:12PM
Ok see what you mean.
If you are an experianced windev developer , not a beginner. Then I'ts about the same as a medior VS developer. You can problebly make 3000 euro in a month easily when you are an employee.
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: Moderator Jimbo (IP Logged)
Date: July 2, 2011 07:21AM
In Austria, as an employee, I'd say you'd make between 2500 - 3200 Euros / month. At least. Before taxes and deductions (social security etc). That's between 1700 - 2000 net payment. e.g. we have only one employed programmer, because of the nature of our business, means we make standard software and definitely no custom applications. Custom programming is slave business and you have to have a very good plan to make any good money from it.
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: RAUL (IP Logged)
Date: July 4, 2011 06:12PM
Hi Jimbo, thanks for your reply.
I'm an independent developer. I wanted to have an idea (any) about how much a Wx developer can be payed.
Let me ask you why you consider that custom development isn't a good business. I agree with you, it could be an slave business... but if you charge for every modification, it can be very profitable.
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: Moderator Jimbo (IP Logged)
Date: July 5, 2011 08:36AM
Hi, here in Austria independent Windows developers (aka freelancers) should charge between 60,- and 100,- Euros per hour. It depends on length and difficulty of the job, on the freelancer's experience and on the customer's ability to pay. Whoever asks for less than 30,- Euros / hour will not be able to live from the job in the long run. Taking 50% employment as a basis i.e. ~80 hours / month. A freelancer has to pay for his insurance + retirement and, of course, taxes.
Slave business. Customers tend to ask for the price of a full project rather than for a price / hour. Btw, I'd do so as well. Software guys are generally weak on estimating time + cost for a project. Rule of thumb: multiply by two in order to arrive at realistic results. At least. Next, one has to have a good legal and strategic framework for doing projects. Most freelancers are having none at all. If we are doing smaller projects which happens from time to time, the framework looks like:
1 - making the analysis (different from WinDev, the 'analysis' is a structured description of the full program, not only the database. This has to be paid per hour and signed by the customer when finished.
2 - making a prototype. Not really functional windows show how the software will work. Payment per hour and again customer's signature is required to confirm that the program is what s/he expects.
3 - An offer for the full program. Definition of 'milestones' with a payment plan. If a payment doesn't arrive, work on project is stopped. If additional 'features' are asked for, the whole thing may undergo a rework with charge / hour and a newly revised offer.
4 - Acceptance procedure. Check function against offer. Last payment follows.
5 -Maintenance is to be charged per hour. Many customers don't want to pay for maintenance at all, they're asking for kind of a warranty time and try to put all newly 'invented' features into the project as 'warranty' or 'maintenance'. So, we don't give warranty time and maintenance is to be charged per hour.
Most prospective customers don't want to be constricted by such a framework and signal thereby that they don't want to pay the real price for their project. Additionally, there are web sites like [www.getacoder.com] where cheap Indian or Chinese programmers are offering their services ..
Kind regards, Guenter
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: reg. User DarrenF (IP Logged)
Date: July 5, 2011 02:46PM
Thanks Guenter,
That's a very useful insight. It's useful to know what others are doing and more importantnly, are doing successfully! :spos:
What are your thoughts on charging for support/maintenance using a pre-pay system - such as the customer purchasing 100 hours of support. Have you tried this? Do the customers wince when you ask for money up front?
___________________________________________
Regards,
Darren Farmer.
I'm definitely getting there - just not 10 times faster!
___________________________________________
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: Moderator Jimbo (IP Logged)
Date: July 5, 2011 05:12PM
Hi, imho prepaid maintenance systems don't work for small companies. Many reasons, some believe they built a kind of friendship, some believe that they paid for the software anyway and so on. 15 years ago, for several years we tried to get money for support by having a prepay-system (~ 70,- Euros / year) and letting them call as long as they wanted. Out of 700 customers we got less than 100 who were willing to pay. And guess what? Those who called mostly weren't identical to those who had paid!
Solution: we switched to a premium rate phone number for support. 2,17 Euros / minute. This phone number makes about 400,- Euros / month now. It's not a lot of money but something. The official phone ends in the office, no one there knows anything about software. Sorry Sir, you have to call phone# 0900-530224 Bottom line: everyone pays as much for support as they need and people are switching on their brains before calling, because they're thinking economically, not to say worse ... so I'm getting only those on the phone who did not find a solution for themselves and there are not so many interruptions when having an appointment.
Kind regards, Guenter
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: reg. User DarrenF (IP Logged)
Date: July 5, 2011 05:30PM
Mmmm, That's very interesting... Here in the UK, premium numbers are not looked on so kindly and have a "stigma" attached. I totally understand about making people think before they call.
A lot of the ISPs and broadband suppliers are using them - 50p or even £1 per minute, hanging on the phone for long periods, and more often than not, your problem may not be solved, so it's easy to see why people have a general dislike of these types of phone numbers.
Is the premium rate in addition to the p.h. rate?
___________________________________________
Regards,
Darren Farmer.
I'm definitely getting there - just not 10 times faster!
___________________________________________
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: Moderator Jimbo (IP Logged)
Date: July 5, 2011 05:36PM
Quote:
DarrenF
Mmmm, That's very interesting... Here in the UK, premium numbers are not looked on so kindly and have a "stigma" attached. I totally understand about making people think before they call.
A lot of the ISPs and broadband suppliers are using them - 50p or even £1 per minute, hanging on the phone for long periods, and more often than not, your problem may not be solved, so it's easy to see why people have a general dislike of these types of phone numbers.
Is the premium rate in addition to the p.h. rate?
___________________________________________
Regards,
Darren Farmer.
I'm definitely getting there - just not 10 times faster!
___________________________________________
Yes, it's in addition to the ordinary phone rate .. we never let them wait. They call and they are talking to me or another competent person. Though this is a fixed phone it's redirected to a cell phone and whoever is in charge for support takes it with him/her in addition to the personal phone. And of course - we do not call back. Regards, Guenter
Posted by: RAUL (IP Logged)
Date: July 1, 2011 06:32PM
Hi everybody.
Just a little off-topic to ask you something: how much is your fee per hour for WD development?? Where do you work? (I mean Germany, France, USA, etc..)
PS: sorry for this off-topic. I didn't know where else to find a lot of WD developers. Kind regards.
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: reg. User Allard (IP Logged)
Date: July 1, 2011 07:41PM
Hi
I think that the fee per hour for moast wd developers depends on the amount of work. If it is a job that takes 6 months or 3 weeks can make quite a difference.
I think that a kwalified wd developer ( mening someone who realy knows Windev ) will cost you 60 to 90 euro or more per hour. 60 if the job is big if it is a small job 90 or more . But that's my opinion.
I think moast of the windev developers live in france, Belgium, Spain, Germany. I think I read somewhere that pcsoft has sold some 10.000 copies in the us as well. There is a developers comunity in australia so it's used there as well, donnot know how many developers though. And I saw some questions on this forum from people in England. I live in holland and windev isnot used mutch in holland. ( that 's my opinion for there are verry view vacancees in holland for wx developers in Holland)
I think it is better that if you want to hire someone you should tell where you are and what kind of project you have ( duration) Then they can contact you and give you an estimate ( hour rate )
I hope this info helps
regards
Allard
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: RAUL (IP Logged)
Date: July 1, 2011 09:00PM
Thank you Allard for your reply.
This questions is not for hiring someone. The objective is to have an idea (all of us Wx developers) about how well (or bad) are we being payed for our work.
Dear colleague, if you enter to this topic, please leave your opinion, it doesn't matter if you are payed in a monthly basis. The important thing here is to know how is the Wx maket payed!! I think it's interesting for all of us.
Kind regards.
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: reg. User Allard (IP Logged)
Date: July 1, 2011 09:12PM
Ok see what you mean.
If you are an experianced windev developer , not a beginner. Then I'ts about the same as a medior VS developer. You can problebly make 3000 euro in a month easily when you are an employee.
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: Moderator Jimbo (IP Logged)
Date: July 2, 2011 07:21AM
In Austria, as an employee, I'd say you'd make between 2500 - 3200 Euros / month. At least. Before taxes and deductions (social security etc). That's between 1700 - 2000 net payment. e.g. we have only one employed programmer, because of the nature of our business, means we make standard software and definitely no custom applications. Custom programming is slave business and you have to have a very good plan to make any good money from it.
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: RAUL (IP Logged)
Date: July 4, 2011 06:12PM
Hi Jimbo, thanks for your reply.
I'm an independent developer. I wanted to have an idea (any) about how much a Wx developer can be payed.
Let me ask you why you consider that custom development isn't a good business. I agree with you, it could be an slave business... but if you charge for every modification, it can be very profitable.
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: Moderator Jimbo (IP Logged)
Date: July 5, 2011 08:36AM
Hi, here in Austria independent Windows developers (aka freelancers) should charge between 60,- and 100,- Euros per hour. It depends on length and difficulty of the job, on the freelancer's experience and on the customer's ability to pay. Whoever asks for less than 30,- Euros / hour will not be able to live from the job in the long run. Taking 50% employment as a basis i.e. ~80 hours / month. A freelancer has to pay for his insurance + retirement and, of course, taxes.
Slave business. Customers tend to ask for the price of a full project rather than for a price / hour. Btw, I'd do so as well. Software guys are generally weak on estimating time + cost for a project. Rule of thumb: multiply by two in order to arrive at realistic results. At least. Next, one has to have a good legal and strategic framework for doing projects. Most freelancers are having none at all. If we are doing smaller projects which happens from time to time, the framework looks like:
1 - making the analysis (different from WinDev, the 'analysis' is a structured description of the full program, not only the database. This has to be paid per hour and signed by the customer when finished.
2 - making a prototype. Not really functional windows show how the software will work. Payment per hour and again customer's signature is required to confirm that the program is what s/he expects.
3 - An offer for the full program. Definition of 'milestones' with a payment plan. If a payment doesn't arrive, work on project is stopped. If additional 'features' are asked for, the whole thing may undergo a rework with charge / hour and a newly revised offer.
4 - Acceptance procedure. Check function against offer. Last payment follows.
5 -Maintenance is to be charged per hour. Many customers don't want to pay for maintenance at all, they're asking for kind of a warranty time and try to put all newly 'invented' features into the project as 'warranty' or 'maintenance'. So, we don't give warranty time and maintenance is to be charged per hour.
Most prospective customers don't want to be constricted by such a framework and signal thereby that they don't want to pay the real price for their project. Additionally, there are web sites like [www.getacoder.com] where cheap Indian or Chinese programmers are offering their services ..
Kind regards, Guenter
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: reg. User DarrenF (IP Logged)
Date: July 5, 2011 02:46PM
Thanks Guenter,
That's a very useful insight. It's useful to know what others are doing and more importantnly, are doing successfully! :spos:
What are your thoughts on charging for support/maintenance using a pre-pay system - such as the customer purchasing 100 hours of support. Have you tried this? Do the customers wince when you ask for money up front?
___________________________________________
Regards,
Darren Farmer.
I'm definitely getting there - just not 10 times faster!
___________________________________________
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: Moderator Jimbo (IP Logged)
Date: July 5, 2011 05:12PM
Hi, imho prepaid maintenance systems don't work for small companies. Many reasons, some believe they built a kind of friendship, some believe that they paid for the software anyway and so on. 15 years ago, for several years we tried to get money for support by having a prepay-system (~ 70,- Euros / year) and letting them call as long as they wanted. Out of 700 customers we got less than 100 who were willing to pay. And guess what? Those who called mostly weren't identical to those who had paid!
Solution: we switched to a premium rate phone number for support. 2,17 Euros / minute. This phone number makes about 400,- Euros / month now. It's not a lot of money but something. The official phone ends in the office, no one there knows anything about software. Sorry Sir, you have to call phone# 0900-530224 Bottom line: everyone pays as much for support as they need and people are switching on their brains before calling, because they're thinking economically, not to say worse ... so I'm getting only those on the phone who did not find a solution for themselves and there are not so many interruptions when having an appointment.
Kind regards, Guenter
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: reg. User DarrenF (IP Logged)
Date: July 5, 2011 05:30PM
Mmmm, That's very interesting... Here in the UK, premium numbers are not looked on so kindly and have a "stigma" attached. I totally understand about making people think before they call.
A lot of the ISPs and broadband suppliers are using them - 50p or even £1 per minute, hanging on the phone for long periods, and more often than not, your problem may not be solved, so it's easy to see why people have a general dislike of these types of phone numbers.
Is the premium rate in addition to the p.h. rate?
___________________________________________
Regards,
Darren Farmer.
I'm definitely getting there - just not 10 times faster!
___________________________________________
========================================================
Re: [Off-topic survey] Fee per hour of WD development
Posted by: Moderator Jimbo (IP Logged)
Date: July 5, 2011 05:36PM
Quote:
DarrenF
Mmmm, That's very interesting... Here in the UK, premium numbers are not looked on so kindly and have a "stigma" attached. I totally understand about making people think before they call.
A lot of the ISPs and broadband suppliers are using them - 50p or even £1 per minute, hanging on the phone for long periods, and more often than not, your problem may not be solved, so it's easy to see why people have a general dislike of these types of phone numbers.
Is the premium rate in addition to the p.h. rate?
___________________________________________
Regards,
Darren Farmer.
I'm definitely getting there - just not 10 times faster!
___________________________________________
Yes, it's in addition to the ordinary phone rate .. we never let them wait. They call and they are talking to me or another competent person. Though this is a fixed phone it's redirected to a cell phone and whoever is in charge for support takes it with him/her in addition to the personal phone. And of course - we do not call back. Regards, Guenter
|
RAUL
Re: Fee per hour of WD development July 08, 2011 11:47PM |
Thanks for this space to speak about off-topic-Wx-related themes.
===
Jimbo, thanks a lot for your comments and point of view. As you clearly express that custom-made apps are not profitable, and I agree with you in most points, what kind of development would you suggest for freelancers or small business? Any experience to be mentioned?
I think point is very simple to see (but very difficult to solve)... You develop an app, any app, sell it, and what after that? I guess in most cases, there's no new incomes for that development. This situation is what we should try to avoid. Of course, we are not talking about development anymore, we're talking about business strategy... I guess that SaaS could be an answer for this. What do you think guys?
Regards.
===
Jimbo, thanks a lot for your comments and point of view. As you clearly express that custom-made apps are not profitable, and I agree with you in most points, what kind of development would you suggest for freelancers or small business? Any experience to be mentioned?
I think point is very simple to see (but very difficult to solve)... You develop an app, any app, sell it, and what after that? I guess in most cases, there's no new incomes for that development. This situation is what we should try to avoid. Of course, we are not talking about development anymore, we're talking about business strategy... I guess that SaaS could be an answer for this. What do you think guys?
Regards.