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New competition for WinDev?

Posted by Thomas 
King
Re: New competition for WinDev?
May 29, 2011 03:46PM
Thanks Thomas and John

John

Resco is very cosy and it's only for mobile dev. but I'll go have a look.

I do stay neutral towards all dev tools and the reason I'm using WX
because it's deliverable and can make profit but none from
WM so far.

Thanks again

King
King
Re: New competition for WinDev?
May 29, 2011 04:18PM
Thanks for tip John Marrone

Nice Alpha 5, especially, the lookup drilldown is handy and easy to implement for
webApp and lots of training videos.

So, for the full package developer license ~USD1200 (Is it royalty free to deploy the App Server to any of my clients?

Regs

King
John
Re: New competition for WinDev?
May 29, 2011 04:36PM
Re Alpha 5,

I was impressed with the dev side of things, did look very good. However, something I didn't like, and this applies to any dev package that does it, is where to build web apps you have to buy a license for EACH server you want to run a web site on. At around £400 a time that's quite a costly way to develop web apps ! Strangely, their run-time option is just a one off payment for unlimited PCs and users, but again, it is quite annoying as really it's just a another way for them to get money off you, unless the only apps you create are only going to be used by you.

Why do software companies insist on doing this? I know VS has it's critics, but when I build an app in that I don't have to worry about any further license costs. Even WinDev allows you to do this, (I'm not sure about WebDev, do you have to buy a license for each deployment server, I've never used it?).

Regards

John
Jimbo
Re: New competition for WinDev?
May 29, 2011 05:03PM

Once I did an extensive test of Alpha 5. Just to see what's in it. My conclusion: Alpha 5 is for amateurs but not for real programmers. I found heaps of problems without digging deeper into it. Errors over errors. Just similar to Dr. Explain. Qualitity, quality .. Sure, WinDev RAD has to be tweaked and understood thoroughly until an error-free program comes out. But Alpha 5 was hopeless. Just my 2 cents. Guenter
King
Re: New competition for WinDev?
May 29, 2011 05:13PM
Yes, you have to pay ~us450 per server (unlimited user).

The complaint for WB is not enough training videos thus leading us to
hack around and ask help here but not much response as everybody
is new to WB's.

I'm using more WB than WD (windows app) as you can run the app with
browser anywhere and don't need to install any DLLs or others.

King

Thomas
Re: New competition for WinDev?
May 29, 2011 10:11PM
Guenter, you're right.
I tested Alpha 5 a few years ago and found it is even less flexible than Windev. It is more of an "MS Access replacement"
Jimbo
Re: New competition for WinDev?
May 30, 2011 05:26AM
Quote
Thomas
Guenter, you're right.
I tested Alpha 5 a few years ago and found it is even less flexible than Windev. It is more of an "MS Access replacement"

MS Access has one advantage over Alpha 5: it works as advertised.

WinDev is very flexible ! It is fast enough for POS software on slow hardware, you can solve lots of hardware oriented jobs like opening / using serial and parallel ports, doing FTP and many 'exotic' tasks more. Try that with any other of those 4GLs. Btw, many of the so-called 'errors' of WinDev aren't WinDev-errors at all, they are programmer-errors. Admitted, there is a bunch of quite harsh real problems in WinDev. The most worrying part is not to know about a schedule of fixes. Mostly - not always - there are workarounds.
Regards, Guenter
Thomas
Re: New competition for WinDev?
May 31, 2011 06:33AM
Hi Günter,

"many of the so-called 'errors' of WinDev aren't WinDev-errors at all, they are programmer-errors".
That's what I try to explain all the time. Sloppy programming work which could improve.
The management should give its programmers time to carry out a fix.

Even MS does not get out every year a new VS Relase


Regards

Thomas
Jimbo
Re: New competition for WinDev?
May 31, 2011 09:30AM
Quote
Thomas
Hi Günter,

"many of the so-called 'errors' of WinDev aren't WinDev-errors at all, they are programmer-errors".
That's what I try to explain all the time. Sloppy programming work which could improve.
The management should give its programmers time to carry out a fix.

Even MS does not get out every year a new VS Relase


Regards

Thomas

Hi Thomas, definitely, you got me wrong! I said that in many cases (not all, of course) WinDev itself is not the faulty part but the users of WinDev. In bad Russian: nix maschina kaputt, maschinista kaputt ! And yes, there are quite a few WinDev problems too and we're waiting much too long for fixes. That's another story. Regards, Guenter
John
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 02, 2011 06:23PM
Hi Guenter,

Looking through some of the topics on the forum lately, it would appear that there are a lot of problems with WinDev 16. Considering it's meant to be tested through the French users having it first, it's a bit concerning. It looks like PCSoft are more and more interested in sticking a new number after the 'V' and getting the cash in rather than testing the new features they are implementing and testing how well they sit with older versions, let alone fixing the old bugs that have been knocking around for ages.....

Regards

John
Thomas
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 02, 2011 07:35PM
Hi John,
exactly!
I'm worried that the English PCSOFT Windev version is no longer distribute.
It would be good if PCSOFT would release a statement in his own forum on the future of WINDEV.

Regards


Thomas
Jimbo
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 02, 2011 07:59PM
Quote
Thomas
Hi John,
exactly!
I'm worried that the English PCSOFT Windev version is no longer distribute.
It would be good if PCSOFT would release a statement in his own forum on the future of WINDEV.

Regards


Thomas

Hey Thomas, slow down, this is complete bullshit! Look at the release dates of the last update to v16 and compare at the version numbers too. You'll see that v16/US has a more recent version number than v16/FR. Plus, look at: [gambas.sourceforge.net] and read 'At the beginning ...' to cool down your VS enthusiasm a bit. Guenter

King
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 02, 2011 08:22PM
Umm....mmm

V16 looks like yoyo as I just got everything stablilized in V15 fm V14 as it
gave me nightmare for the web configuration, I'm out of time to evaluate
V16 as I need to generate more $$$ fm V15.


King
Allard
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 03, 2011 03:08AM
Quote
Thomas
Guenter, you're right.
I tested Alpha 5 a few years ago and found it is even less flexible than Windev. It is more of an "MS Access replacement"

Guenter I agree. I think windev is a great programm.ftp email phone are just a view things you can implement . Scripting is fantastic and the IDE is great. Windev is the best thing that happend to me in my short programming live. With windev I can make apps that I could not make with other programms. Incredible features out of the box, like the push installer are just fantastic!!


I recently took a look at visual webdeveloper for making websites and am using vb-net for scripting, onley because I am a bit short in funds. It is free and I donnot have to buy an application server.

For the scripting I have read two vb books the last 3 days to get the hack of it. Since I have no programming background and lunrned moast of it by using windev I see why windev is so great.

I think the future of programming is more webbased so if funds are better i will problebly go with webdev . I like the 10x faster For now The web for me is goning to be visual webdeveloper. The nollage of vb.net is a good addition to my skills and job uppertunities are better

I think pc soft is dedicated to the english users , As I red on this forum they even did the major part of a cource in Lasvegas.

Allard
ccc
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 05, 2011 04:43AM
i think it's too early to grade light switch. will have to wait couple version .

which tools i used, depend on the project requirement .
Allard
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 29, 2011 12:38PM
Hi Has anybody seen this

www.outsystems.com

This looks more like competition

Allard
Jimbo
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 29, 2011 02:21PM

Hi,

a - did you see the prices? Look: [www.outsystems.com]
b - it's for Java / or C# programming. None of them is a promise for real fast development.

Regards, Guenter
Paulo Oliveira
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 29, 2011 02:58PM
Yes, i have attended some demos of outsystems.
I do not know what is your case, but if you are developing commercial applications (packages) outsystem doesn't seem a good solution.
If in your case the normal is to develop custom applications so it pays to spend some time evaluating OutSystems.
In any case test thier open source applications in (http://www.outsystems.com/apps/) just to see some samples or check thier event site (http://www.outsystems.com/NextStep/Presentations.aspx?resource=) to see some presentations and videos.

PS: take some time to see the CodeJam video in the presentations to see the resources and time spent to make the open source apps (do not forget that who developed the applications also developed the development environmentwinking smiley).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2011 03:13PM by Paulo Oliveira.
CCC
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 29, 2011 03:16PM
Quote
John
Hi Guenter,

Looking through some of the topics on the forum lately, it would appear that there are a lot of problems with WinDev 16. Considering it's meant to be tested through the French users having it first, it's a bit concerning. It looks like PCSoft are more and more interested in sticking a new number after the 'V' and getting the cash in rather than testing the new features they are implementing and testing how well they sit with older versions, let alone fixing the old bugs that have been knocking around for ages.....

Regards

John

don't forget the limitation of the features they implemented . PCsoft seem to has habit of roll out half bake cake then hope no one notice and finish it in next version release .

until now I still think clarion is the best (the template/compiler is solid while the IDE is suck). I know clarion is out of date but the application generated by clarion is very stable compare to windev .
I have application that I used clarion 5 to build a decade ago , the application still running on win7 without any problem .






Erik Schwarz
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 29, 2011 04:48PM
Hi,

when looking at their homepage and one example video, sorry, I did not understand much.
Every demo video by pcsoft, even if spoken in French, explains much more to me.
Prices on a monthly base :mad:
Serious? (just for fun) Windev says 10 times faster, ok a nice advertisement.
Outsystem says 10.8 times faster. How did they get this value :confused:
For me as an engineer this 3 digit precision is really nonsens.

my conclusion: I'll stay with Windev :-)

Erik
Jimbo
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 29, 2011 05:03PM
Quote
CCC
Quote
John
Hi Guenter,

Looking through some of the topics on the forum lately, it would appear that there are a lot of problems with WinDev 16. Considering it's meant to be tested through the French users having it first, it's a bit concerning. It looks like PCSoft are more and more interested in sticking a new number after the 'V' and getting the cash in rather than testing the new features they are implementing and testing how well they sit with older versions, let alone fixing the old bugs that have been knocking around for ages.....

Regards

John

don't forget the limitation of the features they implemented . PCsoft seem to has habit of roll out half bake cake then hope no one notice and finish it in next version release .

until now I still think clarion is the best (the template/compiler is solid while the IDE is suck). I know clarion is out of date but the application generated by clarion is very stable compare to windev .
I have application that I used clarion 5 to build a decade ago , the application still running on win7 without any problem .

Whatever you tell, one's for sure: compiled WinDev applications are rock solid and stable.
Arie
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 30, 2011 09:06AM
I would say solid - not Rock solid, I'm afraid.

Problem is: is it WD or some other thing causing the error

i.e. Frequently use of CloneControl() causes memory leaks, ending up in black controls (controls not redrawn anymore) - must be WD

There's a thread in this forum about the HFCS crashing for whatever reason. PCsoft issue, because it should not crash but throw an error.

Or this on a line which runs fine for many times, but suddenly fails. Could be Microsoft



Igor Pobi
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 30, 2011 09:40AM
Hello !

One good competition for Windev smiling smiley

[www.4d.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2011 09:42AM by Igor Pobi.
Jimbo
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 30, 2011 10:46AM
Sorry, Igor: NO

1 - 4D asks for royalties for runtimes and these don't come cheap. You can't distribute a 50,- Euro program with 4D, you can't distribute freeware.

2 - 4D is weak on low-level-functions, like most other 4GLs. Try to open and manipulate a serial port or a parallel port. WinDev offers lots of low-level functions which you won't find in other 4GLs.

Regards, Guenter
Gianni Spano
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 30, 2011 11:00AM
Hello Igor

Just for curiosity, i have downloaded 4D software..
Yes, it seems to nice, but it doesn't has the same Windev features.

I don't understand why some Wd programmers are speaking (not with good words) about Windev.
I don't agree in part with your considerations.
I have been programming for about 30 years, starting with a Cobol background and, believe me, Windev is my last (and best) choice. And i can add, if Windev was available 25 years ago, i should be a happiest man...
So, be patient...Our skill help us to find some workaround when we have some difficults, but this is OUR experience...If sometime Wd has a little bug, i understand the frustation of some WD users, but we can't obtain ALL at the same time.
I can confirm there aren't software for development that haven't bugs. M$ teach!!

Just a little consideration.....

Gianni
King
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 30, 2011 02:02PM
Hi

I see no new videos for 16, where are they?

King
Igor Pobi
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 30, 2011 02:58PM
Hello!

Just for clarification, I love windev and many developing it but it certainly is closely monitoring and other development tools.
(Each of these development tools is in some ways better than others, but I agree, windev was able to cover with some minor flaws, most of the things needed for the development of high-quality applications).

P.S. I am the user of windev since version 5.5. As well as all versions webdev and windev mobile ...

Quote
Gianni Spano
Hello Igor

Just for curiosity, i have downloaded 4D software..
Yes, it seems to nice, but it doesn't has the same Windev features.

I don't understand why some Wd programmers are speaking (not with good words) about Windev.
I don't agree in part with your considerations.
I have been programming for about 30 years, starting with a Cobol background and, believe me, Windev is my last (and best) choice. And i can add, if Windev was available 25 years ago, i should be a happiest man...
So, be patient...Our skill help us to find some workaround when we have some difficults, but this is OUR experience...If sometime Wd has a little bug, i understand the frustation of some WD users, but we can't obtain ALL at the same time.
I can confirm there aren't software for development that haven't bugs. M$ teach!!

Just a little consideration.....

Gianni
Thomas
Re: New competition for WinDev?
June 30, 2011 08:03PM
I know of 4D software. Many years ago I almost started out as a supporter. Seriously meant, I live 15 kilometers from the headquarters. 4D can not compare with Windev, far too inflexible.
I know Windev since version 5.5. I then moved from Clarion. Clarion was a good product, unfortunately, the developers have missed the evolution of the global market. Windev was for me at the time the rescue. Up to version 10 from then on things went downhill. It was a bad decision on my part, since my standard software must compete with the market leaders. For high-quality software is not just 10 times faster, but quality, "without error" is all.
If WINDEV not improved much, the next project with MS VS and third-party products is realized.
Jimbo
Re: New competition for WinDev?
July 01, 2011 06:04AM
Hi, good luck with VS! Takes three times longer for coding (= 1 year becomes 3 years), needs higher paid personell (cheap guys right out of school / university are a fata morgana in this respect) and will give you headaches over lots of much more complex errors. Getting your staff up to date will take quite a few courses each year and time and reading everything about VS will eat up your time and the time of your programmers.

There's no doubt, you can make high quality products with WinDev - it depends on you, not on the tool you're using! If you cannot make quality products with WinDev, you will not be able to make them with VS or any other programming tool. It's a deadly fault to think that quality comes out of a box, it's the result of the developer's work! Analyzing, prototyping, planning, documenting, writing the help, lots of testing and a little coding will make quality. Carefully read Frederick P. Brooks book 'the mythical man month' and try to understand. Brooks made the IBM /360 series work and his book is quite aged (1982) but some thruths don't fade away with time.

Regards, Guenter




Piet van Zanten
Re: New competition for WinDev?
July 01, 2011 07:43AM
Hi Guenter,

I agree with Thomas. Windev 9 was the best Windev version EVER.

I also agree with you to some extend. If you want to build stable applications you had better stay away from new features. These are counterproductive.

An example:

Instead of the good old table with form I decided to switch to a table with containers. From there my time is going through the drain. It appears that combo boxes in a container column don't work (some do and some don't) After many hours I give up and convert the table to a looper. Well the layout is completely messed up, but ok, the controls are all there. Try to drag them to the right position. The controls that were in a container appear to be locked in an invisible and unaccessible container. After a while I give up and start a new looper from scratch. After finishing the looper combo boxes (again) based on a query do not display properly.
Finally I'm back to the good old table with form approach.

So much time wasted, but I still end up with a stable and working application.

Regards,
Piet
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