PCSOFT dongle version no more

Hi,

It seems PCSOFT no longer have the dongle version. I cannot see any pricing for dongle version on their website.

Regards,

PETER ZHOU

Good afternoon Peter,

I have to say that I think that this is madness!!

I work in locations where internet access is not readily accessable / behind serious firewalls.

It certainly will have a bearing on how we proceed going forward. If you have something that works - why change it?

I can agree that to have both models available is sensible - but just using the saas model alone will cause problems.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

Yes that seems my last Windev version after 20 years.

Monthly prices are ok but the installtion fee for change from dongle to Saas doubles the price in the first year and after that you have to pay what ever they want, if you want to work with your customers.

This is no base for business.

Yet the french website appears to have both:
[pcsoft.fr]

Mike,
the French site has DOWNLOADs for the dongle versions - but you cannot buy a new dongle WX product from the website anymore.

Steven Sitas

Hi Mike, not anymore! Seems to me, it's a dongle-free future we are going into. There's a new owner in town, asking for more profit, of course, they want to get their money back Reducing cost will be done by streamlining / simplifying sales processes. Dongles + printed books are expensive and have to be shipped by DHL. SaaS is cheaper and guarantees for a steady flow of income. The advantage of SaaS is to be able to use agile processes in-house and publish fixes on short notice. That's how it goes.

Kind regards,
Guenter Predl
gpredl@syspredl.at

I think this is a terrible decision by PCSoft. I am not sure we will ever upgrade again and perhaps our current version of 2025 will be our last.

Question: I installed 2025 suite and the upgrader is telling me there is an update available. If I update my version 2025 is it going to force convert my dongle version to the SaaS version?

Hi JP, no, you will not be forced, nobody can force you to upgrade to SaaS. Download & install your 2025 upgrades. However, as far as I can see version 2026 will be SaaS only. It's your decision to keep your 2025 dongle/s or to convert to version 2026 SaaS. Many development tools are now available in SaaS only. If you want to avoid the extraordinary cost of switching to another development tool you can either stay with your 2025 dongles until the end of times or switch to WINDEV Suite SaaS. That's the hard truth, sorry.

Kind regards,
Guenter Predl
gpredl@syspredl.at

The fact that development environments are in SAAS model is a big change but acceptable.
The fact that WAS and native access are only in SAAS model is what poses big problems, we have more than 100 customers using this type of product and I don't think they would accept changing to a situation like this.
We will have to invest in changing the product because they are no longer a viable alternative for those who develop packages for customers.

Regards

Paulo Oliveira

Thanks for the info, Guenter.

"If you want to avoid the extraordinary cost of switching to another development tool "

Fortunately we already know a number of different development tools ...

"Many development tools are now available in SaaS only"

Sure, and many tools are completely free ...

I don't mind paying and have been a PCSoft client for very many years but the subscription model is very dangerous for developers, in my opinion, IF ... IF the product you have, the version you are on one day in the future, stops working if you stop subscribing. If the product you have up to the point of your last subscription will continue to work after stopping the subscription then that is one scenario, more or less acceptable. But if the product stops working if you stop subscribing then that is completely 100% unacceptable to us as a small development company. Does anyone know what the situation is?

My other concern is that even if currently the software will continue to work even if subscription stops, if the software requires confirmation from PCSoft servers before loading/working then at any time in the future:

1) The product could be prevented from continuing to work unless a subscription is re-started (forced subscription), or

2) If something happens to PCSoft's activation/confirmation servers we would be toast, or

3) If you work in high security environments where internet access is problematic it would be a problem

Lastly, converting the WAS to a subscription model is, as Paulo says, unacceptable to us for reasons he stated.

With this new sales model (SAAS), launching a new version every year no longer makes any sense.
If they start to have a constant source of income instead of depending on sales of new versions, they no longer have a logical justification for not correcting existing bugs,stop supporting a version shortly after, for not evolving versions without having to convert all our projects to the new version and carry out full functional tests because there is always something that stops working or starts to work differently.
For each version change, especially in the case of WEBDEV, we always guarantee a testing process that lasts several months and often when we identify a problem they no longer support that version.

Regards

Paulo Oliveira

Hi Guenter,

I have read your responses a couple of times to try and get my head around things.

I think that the problem is that your developing environment e.g. where you physically sit with a computer to code, is not the same as many of us who have more security conscious locations that we physically sit at.

In the grand scheme of things a dongle is not that expensive based on the flexibilty it affords to the developer. Manuals etc DO NOT need publishing / sending out as this is all perfectly well sorted on line. I think your comment on this is a "Red Herring".

This new model puts too much uncertainty in the minds of developers like myself. I refer to bugs not being corrected, new features not being implemented correctly etc. Also, for a developer, changing to an updated version can mean rewrites and extra time added to development time (which small houses don't have). There are times when a team want to keep an existing version because it is too much hassle to change at that particular moment in time.

All in all, I personally will not be going down this track. I would rather buy an extra couple of 2025 dongles and have the certainty.

Kindest Regards,

Mike

Hi,

What i understand for current Saas version.

Let's say if i am holding now dongle ver 2024, if i upgrade to Saas version 2025 and stop paying for Sass version 2026.
I cannot revert back to my dongle ver 2024 (which i have paid for) as the dongle is being downgraded to version 23.

PCSOFT should consider to let me hold on to version 2024. Then upgrading to Sass version is not an issue for me.
Instead, they forced downgrade the dongle to version 23, it's of no use for me any longer.

I hope PCSOFT should consider allowing to use the version prior to Sass upgrade. And if i decided to use the newest Saas version, i can pay for it.

Regards,

PETER ZHOU

Peter,

I am really shocked to read this! Let me see if I understand you. If I have a fully paid up dongle for 2024 and then switch to SaaS 2025 and then stop the subscription, then my dongle will only work with version 23? That means that something I had already paid for (plus paid for version 24,25, 26, 27, 28, and 2024) have been destroyed and no longer allowed to work? I cant believe this is correct ... ?

Can someone else confirm if this is correct ? (sorry to doubt you Peter but it just seems so outrageous ... or I did not understand properly)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2025 05:08PM by JP.

Hi guys,

Also to me it came as a shock, the new business rules of PCSoft. I'm using version 24 (not version 2024) and every time I start Windev 24 I get an annoying message, that my version is too old and I should upgrade to 2025.

So they can versioncheck and so they have access to my Windev version (my PC) online. When I stop accessing the internet, I do not receive this message anymore.

Does this mean, that they can stop my Windev version online, as they do sending me the message of old software? I only use Windev for a hobby and maintaining some older applications that I made, so upgrading makes no sense to me.

Best regards,

AadG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2025 05:41PM by AadG.

Hi Aad,

no, this is just a sales message and no, they will / can not turn off your dongle version 24.

But, to make things clear, you cannot upgrade your dongle to dongle version 2025, you have to order SaaS and will get the newest / last version available.

Until March 31st, you can upgrade your dongle 24 version to version 2025 SaaS for 540,- Euros / year only! Means, that they don't ask for the "subscription fee" of 699,- Euro! You'd save 699,- Euro!! A dongle upgrade would have been about 900,- EUR. It's your decision whether you want to use SaaS or not.

Kind regards,
Guenter Predl
gpredl@syspredl.at

Guenter

How does one confirm that they are on the dongle system and not on the SaaS system? Is there some visual clue somewhere, on the About dialog type of thing?

I upgraded my dongles to version 2025 some months ago as you know, but I assume that was the dongle version. Just looking for a way to confirm that I have not somehow been migrated to SaaS.

TIA

Hi JP, no, if you had to upgrade your dongle using the upgrade software then the 2025 version is on your dongle and its there until the next hundred years! Don't panic!

Kind regards,
Guenter Predl
gpredl@syspredl.at

Hi all

My concerns about SAAS version are:
Sovereignty: another country has possession of my projects. Who knows what that might bring in the future? With the desktop version I have complete control.
Performance: with SAAS I have an 18000km cable between me and my development system (in NZ). This is a worry. One can expect outages, which by definition occurr when least convenient.
Performance (2): my desktop computer is high-spec, and dedicated to my work. Who can guarantee the same performance from a server farm filled with 10s of 000's of developer systems?

Regards to all

Hi All

We are a small 2 man business. We both plan to reduce work and slowly and the business will reduce as we stop taking on new work. I am sure many others are at this stage in life. We have highly specialized customized apps so unable to sell the business on or hire staff. Hence business will eventually just wind down as clients change business needs.

Our situation is that we check the new features each year and upgrade if there is some new feature we want. We have always found things we want so have always upgraded. We will get to the stage when we decide to stop upgrading. We then have the capability to support all clients indefinitely on the same version at no additional cost. There is the risk of version 2025 (30) stopping working and then having to go Saas version or walking away.

With AI likely to revolutionize programming. I love WIndev's AI features. Windev and others may be obsolete soon. Big changes are coming anyway ( eg HarmonyOS from China) With our current dongle we could switch to a new development environment and still maintain current applications.

Having to get revenue by selling upgrades every year has kept WIndev focused on developing the product. With the new Saas focus users are "trapped" into monthly fees and there is no incentive to upgrade the product. I bet the 920 feature set will start dropping dramatically. ( a post above mentioned new owners)

We have been great and loyal fans of Windev over the years and hope they company the best with their decisions.

In conclusion. Version 2025 will be our last purchase of Windev under their new rules so they have lost our annual upgrade revenue.

Mike James Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all
>
> My concerns about SAAS version are:
> Sovereignty: another country has possession of my
> projects. Who knows what that might bring in the
> future? With the desktop version I have complete
> control.
> Performance: with SAAS I have an 18000km cable
> between me and my development system (in NZ). This
> is a worry. One can expect outages, which by
> definition occurr when least convenient.
> Performance (2): my desktop computer is high-spec,
> and dedicated to my work. Who can guarantee the
> same performance from a server farm filled with
> 10s of 000's of developer systems?
>
> Regards to all

Hi Mike,

For the Sass version, you will still need to install the IDE on your development machine ( just like dongle version ).
It will auto-check when launch for the subscription ( if offline, i believed there's some grace period ).
You will still get to keep your source code on your computer.

The idea of Sass version is to remove the dongle and pay yearly subscription.

Regards,

PETER ZHOU

Thanks Peter, I have misunderstood what this SAAS implementation involves. So is there nothing stored in their cloud?

Luckily I am retired. I do have 2025 and will keep it in case I need to support a few customers who occasionally ask for modifications. But if I was still an active developer, I would be dropping PC Soft like a hot potato. What's next, them asking for yearly license fees from users of products developed using WX? There are too many open source products to put up with this retro licensing.

Hi, yes, for the time being, this seems to be correct! Stop paying - stop developing! Till now, PC SOFT didn't and doesn't clarify anything, even to us distributors.

However, if you stop paying or you can't afford the payments anymore, that means that you don't have a running business anymore. Why would you develop anything without a business? Even if you're jobless, I think you could afford the 45,- / month for a WINDEV SaaS. Ok, it's a question: if you stop payments for let's say 6 months and restart after that - will PC SOFT ask for a second registration fee?

Kind regards,
Guenter Predl
gpredl@syspredl.at

I notice that PC soft has stopped the monthly payment option. Now they only allow 1 yr and 3 yrs prepayment. I have already paid for 2025, why would I agree to pay another 540 Euros for a version I have already paid for? Also note that this is a discounted price. The advertised retail price is 89 Euros per month (1068 Euros per year). So you pay 540 to cover mostly a year you have already paid for and then next year they want 1068 euros to keep your subscription going. After that, who knows.

Guenter

"However, if you stop paying or you can't afford the payments anymore, that means that you don't have a running business anymore."

This is the wrong framing. There are many scenarios where a developer may choose to stop subscribing. Maybe a developer stops paying because they have moved onto other development platforms and it has nothing to do with ability to pay.

The model being implemented, according to what is written in these prior posts, means that if a developer stops subscribing then they cannot get access to their own source code even though they have paid for the product up to that moment in time. Peter Zhou says that trying to revert to the dongle version will result in the dongle being downgraded to version 23 even though the user may have paid in full for version 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 previously.

The model is a retroactive punishment and I have never seen this in the software world. Even anti-virus or firewall software and many other systems I use, if you stop subscribing then the program continues to function but with no further updates - which is fair and understandable. But to prevent the user from being able to access their own source code, and/or to downgrade the already paid-for-in-full service/licenses, is some sort of retroactive punishment, a destruction of a product which has previously already been paid for. If Peter Zhou is correct in this then it is unheard of in this industry to my knowledge.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2025 08:35AM by JP.

Hi Paolo,

the world of software is in constant flow. E.g. we found out that code signing our software is now possible only using a dongle, starting at 159,- EUR / year the cheapest, equals 13,25 / month. Our certification provider has stopped doing business with code signing just because of that. One can't deliver unsigned software for windows systems anymore.

Our own software is changing with a constant pace as well. Not only our customers are asking for new features, for changing the software according to new rules of their business, the technical terms for our software products are changing too. Who has to pay for that??

Our customers have to pay, of course! No way out, whatever payment model you choose, our work has to be paid by our customers. You can either ask for a one-time-payment for any changes or ask for a service charge per month .. it's up to you!

Kind regards,
Guenter Predl
gpredl@syspredl.at

Hi, your questions are valid questions, no one except PC Soft can answer. I strongly recommend to send your questions to PC Soft and ask for an answer! Maybe, they did not think it through completely, maybe they thought it through and decided to just go for it? I don't know, I have no answers, sorry.

Kind regards,
Guenter Predl
gpredl@syspredl.at

Hello All,

It would seem that there is only one viable option.
Stay on whatever current dongle version you have while you decide the future course of your business.


The next decision is contemplate your business future.

1.Continue development with your current version until external pressures like Gov legislative requirements, client requests, OS changes etc occur that are unable to be met so you close down or take up the SaaS option at that point. I am semi- retired and surviving quite well using the old V25 Windev & Webdev.

2. Continue development with your current version whilst migrating to a mainstream development environment.

Regards
Al That's AL not AI cause I certainly don't know everything

I find it strange that this new mode is labelled SAAS, when SAAS is defined as "a method of software delivery and licensing in which software is accessed online via a subscription, rather than bought and installed on individual computers". Isn't this just a subscription model?

Regards
Mike