For biz solutions, Desktop app or browser web app ?

Hi everyone I worked with version 14-18 of windev but never decided to create any commercial apps. Now I’m considering windev23 for a project.

Ive avoided desktop software and stuck to delivering web apps. ( I avoided webdev and chose a different web development tool).

Web apps have No client install issues and upgrades are easy. However I often look at windev when the new version is being released and feel jealous at all the very cool controls. The look of the apps are very cool.

Now windev 23 is here and I’m considering should I create a windows desktop app for a project and not use my web app go to solution. But this forum highlights issues. I don’t want to be dealing with tracking down client support issues all the time. Am I worrying about nothing?

Is it worth doing small one off projects with just a few (20) users?
Or Has windows 10 , virus software and malware threats made maintaining small projects just too time consuming. Plus you now need to know more about tracking down problems on client pc’s

I read this forum and the posts of the many problems that can occur, and get scared of windows 10 upgrades , and antivirus software interference with apps. And of course updating an app to a new version.

Could I please have honest answer to my worries please.
Is creating software for the desktop with windev a good idea in today’s world? Or should I stick to creating web apps for small project business clients.

Hi James,

making a fine WINDEV app takes much less time than making the same functionality for the web. You can communicate via internet, so far I haven't heard about any security deficiencies while accessing a HFSQL server over the web. Downside ist to have to install the app on each and every PC in the network. If growth commands you can always have a Windows Server and install TSPlus in order to make your WINDEV app available as a "web application".

Hi James,

definitely WinDev for any professional solution:
- You will develop WAY faster,
- will NOT have to worry about browsers changing every few month and breaking your pages (that happens much more often than windows 10 upgrades problems)
- will NOT have to worry about exotic browsers being used and not being compatible,
- will have EASY access to all the hardware (biometrics, scanners, printers...)
- will be able to provide a much UI: faster, more advanced, way easier to use
...

I have been developping both professional and general population software for 30+ years and have worked on big windows, web and mobile applications. For a professional project as you described, I would choose WinDev every single time.

Best regards

Thanks Guenter and Fabrice.
Thanks for the advice.
I’ll down load the express version and have a play

Kind regards James

Hi James,
I have a few applications of about 15-20 users where the program is located only on the server and all users run it from there. I have had no issues but I have no idea how more users or a larger program would affect things.
I do its this way because:
- I control the server environment but not that of the individual workstations
- I have remote access only to the server
- fewer problems with users not logging out at night and interfering with updates, backups, etc.
- updates are very simple
Garry

Hi James

You wrote:

>Could I please have honest answer to my worries please.

It depends very much on your market. This is the approach we have taken:

1. Desktop apps for the power user - web apps cannot come anywhere near the richness of functionality and power that you can deliver to the end users. Use this for mission critical stuff.

2. Web Apps for the nominal users - there are advantages here and huge pitfalls that you have zero control over - not the least being the 100kg browser gorillas that are a law unto themselves. But they have their place for certain functions.

3. Native mobile apps - huge advantages for viewing and submitting data and ease of use not the least being that these devices have become an extension, another appendage, of the homo sapien anatomy.

These are not mutually exclusive. In our experience you need to provide all three in one form or another as this is becoming the default position.

Cheers
André

Garry and Andre
Both thanks heaps. It’s multiple stories and direction from the likes of yourselves that gives me more and more confidence.

Just one thing. If you had a saas product with 100 different businesses with one or two users each (as I do) on a web app that needs to be refreshed, (basically rewritten, ) would you go to a desktop app?
It’s a real estate ad creation system. So used every week but definitely not every day. Ie the success for my product was keeping it very simple for the users to use.


Regards James

Hi James,

Quote
I avoided webdev and chose a different web development tool

Just wondering, what development tool would that be?

I agree with the others about WD giving the best user experience. Your users will not be disappointed, if you are doing a good job :-)

But you also talking about "real estate". I suppose those users are also out in the field? Do they need your app there too? Then WB or even WM comes in sight.

Also 100 different businesses. Are they all in one database on your server or do they have their own local database?
If the first, an update can be a challenge then especially when database structure changes. Now way you can update all 100 at the same time.
If the latter, they all need an internet line, fast enough to get a descent connection.

So as always: it depends. More questions pop up. We need more info about your requirements and future plans to give a better answer….

Cheers Arie
I used code charge and vbscript and Visual Basic COM components On the original website. This created a PDF advertisement creation and booking tool. Ive played with an updated front end with a xojo webapp which is very promising.

In real estate it’s true, the sales people use my app from their home, and at the office. The office admin people work from the office.

They all use the same 3 servers and one ms sqlserver database.

At the moment, a change on the database or the app obviously , immediately changes the app for everyone.
Changing to a desktop app would be challenging to update.
An update of a desktop app would mean a self updating app. That detects a new version is waiting and then warns the user they need to allow it to download and restart a new version.
If possible I would just work with objects locally and keep the database on our servers.
I’m not sure if this is possible to update this way. So this is my challenge.

Basically I need a smart client that points to a master database.

Thanks heaps for your time
Regards James

James,

WD supports the update strategy you need, You can put the update/install pack on your server and do the first install from there, After that that your app will check for an update on startup or even every xx minutes.

Cheers Arie
Great to hear

Hi Guenter
One last question. And again thanks for everyone’s help.

In my world directly accessing a database over the net is a security risk. I must access my server software which then accesses my database. If I understood
You (Guenter) correctly, you can safely access a HFSQL server over the web directly?

Ie can smart clients , mobile or desktop, directly work with the HFSQL server? Or is it still advisable to put a server app between the client and the database?

Hi James,

of course, it's a (small) bit risky. I'd not say it should be standard. However, there are several reasons for doing it safely. Manta, the serverside software which is sitting behind ports 4900 and 4999 is a WINDEV product. There is no way to insert strings of a size bigger than anticipated, which is a standard procedure to inject malware or SQL statements. C++ allows for that - communication has to be secured separately against invaders of that kind. Next, we can a) compress and b) encrypt communication with the serverside software. I'd like to see somebody yet who can inject & execute malware code or SQL statements - compressed AND encrypted! If that happens anytime in the future, we'll be quick to convert to (slower) Web Services. As long as MySql, MariaDB e.a. are there, there is much more chance for them, their servers and their software to contract diseases of various kinds.

Hi James,

personnally, I have been using replicated systems for quite a few years now:

- each users is running against a local (HF classic DB = NO INSTALL)
- the program is calling (separate thread or exe, depending on the needs) a REST webservice (one webdev awp page) to replicate the data against the central DB

This means that even if no internet, server down, or any other problem, users can continue to work (with some possibly stale datat of course) and everything is synchonised when possible.

Also, to answer another point. By putting the program in a WDL file (windev specific libraries) and running it from a launcher, you can quite easily bypass the standard install system and donwload + install new version without ANY intervention of the user and without ANY need for admin rights (which is not the case with the standard pcsoft system).

So you end up with a centralized DB, no update problem and a system much richer and stronger than anything you could do on the web.

And this is true too for mobile/android applications.

Best regards

Hi James

You wrote:

>Just one thing. If you had a saas product with 100 different businesses with one or two >users each (as I do) on a web app that needs to be refreshed, (basically rewritten, ) would >you go to a desktop app?

Depends on very many things. The end users are key in this process - who are they are and what they are doing. If the there is a central admin office I would definitely have desktop stuff running there - far more powerful than web apps and mobile apps. In the field I would have mobile apps [tablets and smart phones] and use web services. While we have a great deal of web app stuff in production our clients are leaning toward native mobile apps.

Cheers

Andre

Hi James and Guenter

> convert to (slower) Web Services

IMHO the webservice is the only way if you use windev and a database over the internet.
The IT department of your clients has some rules, one of them is often " don´t open non standard ports" and then you can´t reach your hfsql server. Believe me, the overhead of a webservice is a pain but it works with every client.

Hi Michael, of course. But as long as it is our own web server or the web server of our customers (small to medium businesses) where we can do what we want .... no problem. I have yet to see a customer or their advisor who insist on port 80 only. If so, no problem, dear prospect - buy your software from someone else, have a nice day!

Hi Fabrice
>>ANY intervention of the user and without ANY need for admin rights (which is not the case with the standard pcsoft system).<<

Is your system a product I can buy?
Or is it just personal classes you have developed for yourself?

Again great thread and very helpful

Regards James

Oops Fabrice
Scratch that
I found your site and that it is an open source project.
Just looking at your videos from 2014 on you tube now.



Thanks

Hi James,

yes, I have several open sources available on my web site. But if you were asking specifically about the autonomous install system, it is NOT part of the open source projects and is currently not available outside of my own/internal projects.

But it's not very complicated and I think I remember we had discussions here about how to do it, so if you have questions about it and you can't find the answer in what has been alredy written, just ask and we'll help...

Best regards

Brilliant
Thanks

If you are going to expose hfsql directly to the internet by opening ports, that is a fairly big risk in my opinion. It is only a matter of time before a weakness is exploited.

If you must provide direct HFSQL, you should insist on site to site VPN handled by perimeter firewalls or software VPN if the client is mobile or does not have a static IP.

My recommendation if your application is not too complicated and you need to run it anywhere there is an internet connection, then use REST over HTTPS. A bit more work but if you're clients are tech savvy, they will see the value of that implementation rather than open ports which conversely should scare the crap out of them.

Bosh

Hi Bob,

technically, I cannot see any difference between an encrypted HTTPS or VPN dataflow vs. an encrypted AND compressed HFSQL-dataflow! If there's somebody "listening" then transmitted and received data would be meaningless to them.

If you want to insert any meaningful commands and data into ports 4900 or 4999 ("SQL-injection") of our server then you'd have to use the same encryption and compression technology as PC Soft does. Plus, you'd have to know the structure of the database. While VPN and HTTPS encryption technologies are well known to first-class hackers (not to the script kiddies), PC Softs algorithms are not.

Do you believe that HyperFile Control Centers are using REST for accessing remote databases? Sure not. Do you believe that SCM/GDS connections are using REST? Sure not. REST would be an additional lock to a door which already has three locks. Encryption, compression and a surefire protection against injection and execution of long strings.

Always, there will be people scared of something unimaginable and unbelievable. Chemtrails, unknown diseases, whatever. I'm not going to convince these and not those who think that opening port 80 is less dangerous than opening port 4900 or whichever port I choose for communicating with my HF-server. Btw, use a port scanner to inspect your own computer.

Hey Guenter

I understand what you're saying. However, I'm looking at it from the end user perspective. If you ask any network manager to open up a port on their perimeter firewall for an application they will likely refuse - rightly or wrongly. It's a matter of perception.

That said, PC-soft have not got a 100% secure rep. We all remember source code in plain text right?? They may well have got this right but who knows. The network manager is likely a stumbling block.

If your market is small business, we can do what we want. If you are selling to mid-size or even larger SME then asking for an open port is going to be an issue. Better to avoid it imho

Cheers

Bob

Hi

why not use remote desktop and run windev on the server. one db one version of the windev app. Updating is just changing the exe if no db changes or one install and when users connect again they have a new version.

I guess the question is can you convince your users to use it. If they are used to use the web. Some users want a webapp because of the web.

R

Quote
wduser
Hi

why not use remote desktop and run windev on the server. one db one version of the windev app. Updating is just changing the exe if no db changes or one install and when users connect again they have a new version.

I guess the question is can you convince your users to use it. If they are used to use the web. Some users want a webapp because of the web.

R

1. Printing Problems
2. TS Licensing
3. Device redirection issues.

The list goes on..

Hi

OK it costs money . Printing stuff is just setting thing up the right way . We have never had big problems but I must say a hardware man with great nollage. I donnot know what you mean with device redirection ?? Working with 30 / 40 people this works great. Plus they can work form home as well

R

PS
As a developer . ease of use . Just make that windev thing and it works. Making serveral versions on one day …super edge ile …. No problem working this way

Hello Bob

We use Amazon EC2 instances running windows server and TSPlus as our remote desktop client. No problems at all in the last couple of years and low cost. The performance of the Amazon Servers is excellent. We don't have one of these with more than 10 users, but the beauty of Amazon is that you can just add more grunt to the server if it is needed and it doesn't take long. We run them inside an Amazon private network.

We have other processes which use Fabrice's open source replication system and it is very reliable.

TSPlus will do some excellent deals on the server licences if you setup as a dealer and it has never given us any issues and the printing works every time. TSPlus provide a couple of printer options but the one we use is an automated process to generate a PDF on the server which then sends it to the client and prints through the local default printer.

Regards
Al

Quote
Al
Hello Bob

We use Amazon EC2 instances running windows server and TSPlus as our remote desktop client. No problems at all in the last couple of years and low cost. The performance of the Amazon Servers is excellent. We don't have one of these with more than 10 users, but the beauty of Amazon is that you can just add more grunt to the server if it is needed and it doesn't take long. We run them inside an Amazon private network.

We have other processes which use Fabrice's open source replication system and it is very reliable.

TSPlus will do some excellent deals on the server licences if you setup as a dealer and it has never given us any issues and the printing works every time. TSPlus provide a couple of printer options but the one we use is an automated process to generate a PDF on the server which then sends it to the client and prints through the local default printer.

Regards
Al

Hi Al,

How much per month are you paying for an EC2 instance?

We run our windev apps on a hosted server through a 3rd party provider (using RemoteAPP) which is probably more expensive and shied away from Amazon because it was so hard to sort out what the monthly spend would be.

Steve